Curse

Enchanted Warrior · Feb 04, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Note: This is not a complaint, or rant, it's a question..

Has anyone else experienced this, Hero healers cannot keep up with hencie healers in intense fights? (I never thought I'd say this, but) Menhlo, etc can really out heal and regenerate faster it seems, than the heroes can. The Heroes seem to be only as fast as player healers.

Anyone else experience this? If so any ideas why?

daky · Feb 05, 2007, 05:22 AM // 05:22

I would take my hero over a hench anyday. You have just yet to find a build that works for you.

Makkert · Feb 05, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Maybe its the build you gave your hero?
Maybe its how your hero uses the skills you gave him (keep the herobar up to see what he does).
Maybe its the setting you gave your hero: aggressive? avoid combat? or defensive (useful for [skill]Power Drain[/skill])?

Coloneh · Feb 05, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

No, you just need to manage you heroes right. if your choosing the skills you can drop all the crappy stuff henchies take (i.e. healing breeze) and disable their rez and add in some good skills (dawanya's kiss anyone?). also their reactions are just as fast.

Mr_Cynical · Feb 05, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

I don't know why, but my heros seem to spend most of their time doing nothing (regardless of whether they're set to Attack, Guard or Passive), ignoring the several Jade Brotherhood (or insertothermonster) chopping them and my party to bits. I've tried various builds - WoH healer, Restore Conditions prot, etc. etc. and none seem to work. Unless I can work out what's wrong I'm gonna start taking monk henchies instead and take a extra offensive hero or two.

Enchanted Warrior · Feb 05, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Cynical

I don't know why, but my heros seem to spend most of their time doing nothing (regardless of whether they're set to Attack, Guard or Passive), ignoring the several Jade Brotherhood (or insertothermonster) chopping them and my party to bits. I've tried various builds - WoH healer, Restore Conditions prot, etc. etc. and none seem to work. Unless I can work out what's wrong I'm gonna start taking monk henchies instead and take a extra offensive hero or two.

/Agree

Some mobs go right for the healers, others go for the MM, etc.. It wasn't that way at first, so the devs might be responding to complaints about no more pugs IMHO. My MM ruled the first week I had him, now he's mostly a pain, (Master of whispers), minions wander, or stand and watch etc.. but Olias (You have to have access to Prophecies to obtain him) is killer. Same build (MM from Guild wiki). So I am learning some heroes are better than others. Like Zhed (Centaur), if you make him anything but ranger he's useless, he either runs in and wants to fight hand to hand when set to guard, or stands there doing nothing on avoid. I put mine in storage and use Acolyte Sousuke.

Shady79 · Feb 05, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

you can delete it yourself: edit -> delete this post

pingu666 · Feb 06, 2007, 01:35 AM // 01:35

i think sometimes they go abit useless...

JoeKnowMo · Feb 07, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Heroes tend to use their skills in order of priority from left to right. There are also some skills that they won't use or will use just at specific times (probably not when you want them to). By re-arranging their skill bars and varying their skills and then watching what they do, you'll get a better idea of how to setup their builds.

In PvE, I find that higher dmg is more desirable and I find the healer hench are usually capable of keeping the party alive. Hence, I usually take offensive heroes, often with a couple of interupts each (power drain, leech sig).

FoxBat · Feb 07, 2007, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Heroes play alot of good player-monk bars extremely badly. You need to construct them specially to avoid them wasting their energy. For example, in most of the game, I'd consider protective spirit a waste. It will be overcasted quite a bit when not needed, draining that 10e fast. You don't want to hand them things like blessed light, divert hexes, restore conditions, or even mend ailment, since they will use it at the slighest sign of either regardless of the player's health bar. Sticking GoLE on their bar is no garuntee they will use it on Aegis (unless you do this manually) and so on. And of course, mes inspiration interrupts are a good idea. Channeling might work for you too. I'll even use divine intervention because it's cheap and efficient, the healers respect and let you get hit until it triggers, it's generally not a risk in PvE, and it is better than filling their bar with things that they waste their energy on constantly when it's only needed occasionally.

strcpy · Feb 07, 2007, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Their AI is the same - give them the same skill bar and they will perform the same. Tis true of any of the hero/hench - Sousuke isn't anymore or less effective than Zhed - they just have different skins.

When you have more control over something that means you can screw them up. It isn't hard to create a skill bar that eats up energy with little heals - in fact that tends to be easier than making one that works well.

If you check guildwiki you will note that Mhenlo has a small, simple skill bar. I would suggest starting with that build and test changes in *one* skill at a time until/unless you understand how to create builds from watching the the AI's skill bar.

Personally I find them to run an RC prot monk (ATNxAfMUDKahZKw6FQTIAA) set to defensive quite well - better than most humans. Though I haven't found a healing prayers build that is much better than the henchies yet.

Enchanted Warrior · Feb 07, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

" Their AI is the same - give them the same skill bar and they will perform the same. Tis true of any of the hero/hench - Sousuke isn't anymore or less effective than Zhed - they just have different skins."

Nope sorry you're wrong. Zhed runs in Sou' doesn't. I read that some heroes are "smarter" than others or act more aggressive than others. Goren for example is said to be strong but not real bright.

That said I am working on builds based on wiki and guru suggestions on related builds and I am doing way better

(Lil tip, use/buy/loot the proper weapons for your hero casters etc, with 1/2 rec and 1/2 cast etc, based on their skills used. It REALLY matters).

current monk hero skills:

Evilsod · Feb 08, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

I tend to use Healer hench...

They're builds are tried and tested and leaves me 3 Hero slots to bring things that can either kill or aid defence.

gogoblender · Feb 08, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

When heroes first came out I was always using heroe monks.
Then after reading a ton about how placing our efforrs and risk with damage and building our teams with huge destruction I opted to switch in henchie monks and use Zed, mm/archer, and Paragon.
The damage got so huge...
Never used a hero monk ever again

gogo

strcpy · Feb 08, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior

Nope sorry you're wrong. Zhed runs in Sou' doesn't. I read that some heroes are "smarter" than others or act more aggressive than others. Goren for example is said to be strong but not real bright.

Both do the same for me, depended on setting, skills, and items. When I have them equipped identical (I sometimes run them both as a dual SF team, though currently one carries mark of rodgort and the other steam) they both run in or they both stay, rarely does one do it and the other not. I swap Goren for Koss all the time, I have them set up the same and I sometimes get tired of watching Koss run around - still haven't seen how Goren is stupid regardless of what the in game description of him is. Nor have I seen Dunkoro be particularly planning ahead in combat any more than Tahlkora, Margrid favor treasure/gold while questing, or any of the other things said in their description when you get them - though their cut scenes, dialog, and in game speech fit those models

In fact, if given the same skills they *all* do pretty much the same thing. Make Tahlkora a SF ele and she does the same as the real eles (just not very good damage wise as can not go above 12 in a skill).

Right now, everything we know and have been told say that they are the same. The enemy AI is the same as our heroes which is the same as the henchies.

As far as I know the devs have not specifically stated, just as "leftmost skill is higher priority" is simply from playing around with the heroes. In this instance you can find a few who swear they test it and see no difference in position, yet the vast majority of players *do* see a difference as they are swapped around on the bar. Is left most a higher priority absolutely correct? Dunno, just as I can't be 100% sure they are the same AI. However, I can be sure there are no substantial differences and position does effect skill usage just from testing.

*shrug* have at it though. Doesn't really matter. You can happily believe that Goren is stupid and figure it does whatever to his skill usage or that Sousuke is much better. Without the devs telling what they did we will never know for sure. Until then, do what works for you.

Moa Bird Cultist · Feb 09, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I tend to use Healer hench...

They're builds are tried and tested and leaves me 3 Hero slots to bring things that can either kill or aid defence.

My sentiments exactly. Bear in mind that Mhenlo and his buddies have a far more focused skill bar than some, ie, <8 skills, not necessarily a bad thing where AI is concerned. And especially in Nightfall, I'd take Mhenlo and Khim over any hero build, they're that good. And besides, there are far more decent offensive hero builds, such as "Dr Olias Goes To Hell" et al.

SnipiousMax · Feb 09, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

I wouldnt' call the Henchies Healers good....

But the point does remain, that you have a choice between Good Healing/protection with a lousy offense, or a really good offense with adequate healing/protection/passive stuff. I'd prefer to have my heros on the offensive.

bungusmaximus · Feb 12, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Henchie heroes run healing breeze, need I say more? Breeze sucks a gulf ball through a garden hose really, with all the enchant hate around it hurts more then it heals. I do agree with most ppl that there's only 3 spots for heroes, so I mostly run one hero monk (who does most of the work, go figure) and a hench. Paired with the paragon hench in Nightfall I can be sure my party is protected well.

Seef II · Feb 13, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

I take either both heroes or both henchies. Mixing them has less synergy than I'd like. Note that in nightfall, the healer henchies don't have hex removal. It's not a problem since the game isn't hex-heavy until the desolation, where you have wurms, but in Torment the water snares and degen might overload them.

But that's what [skill]light of deliverance[/skill] is for.

bhavv · Feb 13, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

My hero monks are fine and 100% better then henchies with the builds I give them. I just wish they could use power drain on passive mode.